Operating expenses are never to be funded by a mortgage. It is a death spiral.

I completely agree with Jake. As difficult as it is, you must raise the necessary funds for your taxes and all other operating expenses through your maintenance or other sources of income that your building may have. At the same time make sure that you have engaged with a Certiorari attorney to protest your valuation on an ongoing basis.

WAB and JAKE,
Thank you for your response. Very helpful. I will pass it on to other board members. Best, FD

You might as well finance your electric and fuel bills for the next 10 years also and eventually the debt burden will be so great that the value of the apartment will drop to next to nothing and you will be struggling to pay a 25,000 per month maintenance bill on your apartment...

Sounds almost like the United States budgeting practices that put us all in the spot we are in...

Not beating a dead horse here, but.. Don't do it!

~AR

we have these in our building-During a power outage a wife brought her husband down in the chair. He had recent knee surgery and could not walk the stairs. Great item to have even if its not a matter of life and death!

...and other interesting things are all the time in the Previous New Products section. We love it! We get ideas from it.

There's a whole article specifically about tax-commission assessment reductions here on this site.

Go to http://www.habitatmag.com/publication_content/2009_january/web_exclusive_adaptations/tax_appeals_for_condos_specifically

I read this article (& the related pieces in this month’s Habitat) before posting my question. If there are answers here, I can’t find them.

The closest thing to relevant advice is in the Editor’s Note, where a Board is cautioned to “insulate itself from any controversy between current and former owners” & to “consult with your attorney about how to deal with this.” I had pointed out this potential problem...but it’s a peripheral concern.

The basic question is how to properly allocate a Board-negotiated, building-wide cash refund of property taxes. I believe a straightforward answer exists, but have not seen the question addressed in any of numerous publications about the tax certiorari process.

I do not think this is a matter which should require legal consultation, 1 property at a time.

It sounds as though your question IS a straightforward one: how to allocate a refund of taxes paid, by the corporation on behalf of all Shareholders, on an equitable basis. Since payment of taxes is done by the corporation, and could be allocated on a per-share basis to begin with, it would seem that refunding them on a per-share basis would be the fairest way.

For example, if you have 27,000 shares and your refund is $27,000, $1 per share would be allocated; a Shareholder having 600 shares would receive a $600 share of the refund.

While I agree that legal counsel (and its fees) isn't needed here, the Board might like to rethink the refund... that $27,000 would go a long way toward ameliorating the cost of a needed elevator upgrade, for example, or could earn substantial income if deposited with reserves.

Hope this was helpful.

Thanks, RLM, but as you'll note in my response to Harvey, payment of taxes in condos is NOT done by the corporation, but by the individual apartment owners. The owners do, however, typically grant the Board [via the By-Laws] the power to hire counsel & pursue tax certiorari appeals on behalf of the collective owners.

While it may, indeed, be tempting for an Association to apply refunds toward capital projects, doing so would amount to an allocation by ownership shares...which probably won't be in proportion to the way the taxes were paid.

I misread this as a co-op....

While I am in a coop and each unit has an allocation of shares representing both the unit and the common areas, I am ignorant as to how condos allocate common charges. Perhaps, any tax rebate should be allocated or pro rated in the same manner, e.g.: the percentages used to apportion common charges.

We are working towards converting from coop to condo and I know we plan to retain the shares per unit as the medium for allocating common charges.

This article gives us some food for thought.

Thanks all.

Thanks, Harvey, but condos are fundamentally different in that each apartment is a taxable piece of real property. The building doesn't pay tax on the residential units--it's paid by the individual owner-occupants [or investors].

Allocation by ownership shares would not return tax monies in proportion to the way they were originally paid.

Have you consulted with the condo accountant as to the way it should be distributed?

I think you have the right idea when you state the following:

In refunding directly to owners, the substantial headache of determining actual taxes paid on each unit--so that direct disbursement or credit is correctly allocated--should not be discounted. Will this process be reliably accurate? Should it be transparent, with results published or available to all owners?

However, more than taxes paid which may be abated by any of the programs, you should ook into the assessed value of each unit so that you may come up with the right amounts per unit.

AdC

This is not 1 building, but many. There are accountants in each camp; some must be wrong.

As for assessed value: let's say you & your neighbor have identical apartments. Your neighbor is elderly, disabled, & a permanent resident, meaning he receives STAR & other tax breaks. It's your 2nd home, & you're young & healthy...you have no abatements.

The condo negotiates a tax refund which works out to $1,000 for your unit. Adjusted proportionally for the lower taxes your neighbor actually paid, he would get $650. Do you think it's fair, then, for him to get the full $1,000, based on assessment alone?

What if your neighbor is a diplomat, or if the unit is owned by a nonprofit to house staff or guests...or as an office? They've paid no taxes--should they get a refund?

Multiply by, in some cases, hundreds of units in a building, & it can get complicated. Plus, some of the disparities can be quite sizable.

It would be nice to see a knowledgeable atty or accountant weigh in on this one.

It seems that you argue that those who get STAR, and other exemptions are not entitled to obtain their portion of the tax certiorari. Unfortunately, I disagree; if the unit were to change hands and all of those exemptions were gone, the assessed value of the units would remain the same. Your arguments seem to say that, because some people had no exemptions, you are in the obligation to compensate them for their lack of exemption by giving more to them through the tax certiorari refund. You seem to forget that a tax certiorari takes into account the overall assessed value of the property by compared to other property situated in your area.

Well, those who got STAR declared on their IRS forms the money advanced to them in the case of a shareholder. I guess in a condo as well as in a house, the owner only declared their discounted portion to the IRS as their tax burden. Consequently, those with less exemptions or none, delcared their larger payments of taxes as part of their IRS form.

Non-profits pay taxes for property, properties owned by a diplomat as a private citizen of a foreign country may pay taxes; however, the person may not pay income taxes and as a diplomat may enjoy inmunities of several nature. Now, property owned by a foreign country for the purpose of establishing an embassy may be another question. I don't think a residential building has to worry of an embassy in their apartments.

Consequently, consult the tax accountant and get guidelines that are unbiased when distributing the gelt.

AdC

I agree with much of your analysis, AdC: assessed value does not change, whether or not abatements are in place. When rate reductions are negotiated, all units benefit going forward from proportionately lower assessments...whether or not their taxes are paid fully, or reduced.

Refunds, however, are intended to return a portion of taxes paid to those who actually paid them. That's why a multi-year tax refund raises interesting practical & ethical questions for an owner who purchased mid-term; as discussed earlier, the issue of whether to share with the seller is best left to the individual owner, his attorney, & his conscience. Where abatements are concerned, however, the questions are much broader, more complex, & must be made building-wide by the Board.

Tax cert attorneys negotiate a lump-sum settlement for a building, based on what the unit owners collectively paid for the period in question. When the Board slices this pie, an equal portion given to owners who paid reduced tax for that period amounts to a WINDFALL, & it comes at the expense of their neighbors. Most owners I know, in most buildings I see, would not consider this fair.

You’re correct that all owners must declare to the IRS taxes refunded…just as they originally deducted taxes paid; this is true regardless of the absolute amount or proportional allocation. And you’re right that tax certiorari considers overall assessed value by comparing to like properties…but that comparison presumes a predictable mix of abatements in other buildings; at the macro level, there’s no discrepancy or problem. It’s when considering individual apartments--which a Board allocating refund monies must do--that inequities arise.

I maintain that Boards which decide to dump refunds into their capital reserves are delivering a windfall to some owners at the expense of others…& that allocating refunds fairly, apartment-by-apartment, is a thorny & difficult task. I remind you that I’ve seen diametrically opposed opinions from tax accountants for buildings in similar circumstances. They can’t all be right.

Depending on the size of the tax refund that you got under the tax certiari, the work seems to call for tons of recalculations that might not provide the expected rewards or great difference in refunds between those with abatements and the have nots. You may wish to investigate with one apartment with many abatements and find out how much such an apartment would differ from one with no abatements. If the jobs is worth it, then roll up your sleeves and prepare to work for several nights. This will get you the perfect distribution.

AdC

1--In one building I'm looking at, the refund is 6 figures...not small change, even when split among many apartments.

2--No question, it would take a lot of work to get this right.

3--As to whether it's "worth it," how could you or I--or any elected Board member--legitimately make that call for individual unit owners, all of whom have the right to be treated equitably?

This is why it's such a thorny question.

We signed a contract with a "partner" ten weeks ago and are still waiting for them to do the audit and for the state to approve our application. Are these delays normal? I mean, the government moves at the pace of molasses, but shouldn't a private partner be able to send out an engineer in less time than a fiscal quarter?

Can/will you say who the partner is? Or e-mail me off line if you don't want to be so jeeptop2000 at yahoo dot com

Yes I agree that is awhile but they say they are busy especially seince NYSERDA is putting a floor on the loan buy downs

If you're referring to an increased tax assessment from the city for the value of your co-op (and I'm not certain if you are) then
... these appeals take at least a year if not longer. So even if 2011 is on the outside of the envelope, it's not unheard of. Thre's a saying: "The wheels of justice grind slowly."
... the city re-figures your assessed value every few years, not every year, so in those years when nothing changes, there's nothing to appeal.
If this isn't what you're referring to please clarify.

this is what I am referrring to - the assessment that is effected by the new tax increase. they are claiming it has gone up and that the review will not get "on the docket" until 201 but that it must be paid asap. in the meantime, how much has heating fuel gone down?

Ah -- no, the seven percent tax increase, unlike your assessed value, cannot be appealed (except through the city council) (There's another saying: You can't fight city hall). I don't know what you mean by getting a review on the docket until 201. The rate increase is not an issue for the courts.

And yes, the bill must be paid when it's due. Just the same as when ConEd increases your electricity rate: you have to pay it when the bill comes.

Oil prices are down but how much depends on the kind of oil you're referring to. The price you read about in the newspapers is crude oil: the unrefined stuff that is turned into (or "refined" into) the kind used for heating oil or gasoline. Just as there are different grades of gasoline (regular, super, premium), there are different grades for boilers. So you'll have to find out what kind your boiler burns (typically either No. 2 or No. 6, but there are others). Once you know what you're looking for you can find the answer yourself, if you have access to the Internet (which I suppose you do since you're posting here!) on a commodities web site.

I d mean the assessed value. thanks for clarification. we are disputing the assessed value via and attorney. heating oil is no. 6.

This is clearly a case where the lawyer should be contacted. The guy may appear pleasant and demure, but he's already harassing people on the phone and trespassing on your property. Don't assume he'll go away quietly. If nothing else he's demonstrating that he is not the kind of person you want as a neighbor.

Your lawyer can write a letter to his lawyer (the one who represented him in the purchase application), which will a) embarrass him and b) cause him to realize he may have to pay legal fees if he continues.

May I suggest a PC with a large hard drive (used PC is OK, but a very large hard drive and a DVD burner is a must) and a wireless connection to four five or six wireless PZT webcams. Yes, you will need a small battery/UPS to avoid outages during electrical hits, etc.

And you will need software to capture and retain the images, e.g. one frame every five seconds or only as the image changes. There is free or inexpensive software available:
http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Search/newsearch.php3?S_S=webcam+capture&image.x=15&image.y=14

http://www.canadiancontent.net/tech/downloads/Video-Capture-Programs.html

Sorry, I neglected to include my name.

Thnaks, Bill. May I contact you directly with a few specific questions regarding your great suggestion? If not, wondering if the webcam needs to be visible or if there is a type that can be concealed or is concealed already. The distance it would be from PC is about 15-20 feet and there is one wall/door the signal would have to pass through. IS that feasible for the type of system you describe? Thanks again.

what is the resident doing exactly?

Gluing locks, urinating, and seems to be ramping up activity.

this sounds a little vague. what locks are they gluing and why? what is ramping up activity? who is telling you that someone is doing this and does the informer have their own agenda that they might be defaming a resident? sometimes things are not as one-sided as they seem.

Taking newspapers from in front of other shareholder's doors,SHs report clothing,disappearing from from the common laundry machines,bicycle storage room being breached.

Was this person someone who just bought into your co-op, or the partner of someone who is currently residing? And if they just bought, did you guys vet him/her?

Not at liberty to say at this point. Sorry.

It's worth the cost. With someone gluing locks and "escalating," you'll quickly pay $1200 for repairs anyway. Video evidence will be useful in any legal proceedings (including eviction). And once he's gone you'll still have a way to protect people's safety.

I've found there are always interesting items in the New Products section on the Habitat front page. Even the stuff that's expensive or not right for a particular place can stimulate some new ideas.

I've found two security items in the archive:

BrickHouse Nightvision DVR Spy Lamp

http://www.habitatmag.com/publication_content/previous_new_products/brickhouse_nightvision_dvr_spy_lamp

and

Speco HT-B10X Security Camera

http://www.habitatmag.com/publication_content/previous_new_products/speco_ht_b10x_security_camera

http://www.snapfiles.com/get/securecam.html

Yes, I've been reading. Would comment there but don't care to have my name etc included.

So I'll reply here to one of his/her posts, about the interview. The blogger suggests that interviews may be too fraught such legal traps like race, job status, whether the buyers are veterans etc, that they should be discontinued and replaced by a more thorough vetting process on paper.

I disagree. Not that the financial background shouldn't be vigorous, of course. But the interview should be used if nothing else to explain the co-op/condo's rules. Most people have no idea what it means to buy into a co-op (I certainly didn't).

So take the chance to explain the nature of the business they're investing in. Tell them about your reserve fund: is it big enough to pay for the next capital improvement? Explain that when utilities, property taxes and inflation increase, maintenance will increase.

Then tell them about every-day issues. They will need to know who is responsible for problems like leaks. Explain why the board reviews renovation plans. Whether the newcomers should call the super or the property mgr or a board member with a question. Our interviews always end with asking the new buyers to run for the board!

None of these points require you to ask any questions that could get you into trouble. If interviews make you uncomfortable, ask your managing agent or lawyer for a list of categories you can NOT ask about and review them with the interview committee.

I agree with all of your reasons for having the interview. Your points are well taken and we certainly have not stopped the process. We do have all applicants notarize a copy of the rules as part of the board package stating that they have read and understand them. We also have a comprehensive list of Interview Do's and Don'ts that we developed with our attorneys; however conversation during the interview can easily stray into sensitive territory. In today's world, I just question whether the potential pitfalls outweigh the advantages.

Thanks for the feedback!

BTW, according to Habitat you should be able to respond in Habitat Blog using a pseudonym and hide your email address, just like you can on Board Talk.

Hi. As Board Prez notes, it's possible to leave pseudonymous comments on the Blog. See instructions at the first comment at:

http://habitatmag.com/index.php/habitat/activities/habitat_blog/top_ten_list_pet_peeves

I understand points made about interviews, but I have a few comments:

-- The interview gives you the chance to not only meet and find out things that paperwork can't tell you but also to let an applicant meet and interplay with the full board.

-- At interviews, we always ask an applicant if he understands what a coop is v. a rental or a condo. They always say yes. We then ask him to tell us what a coop is. They almost always say that you own your apt, and coops cost less than condos. We then explain that you own shares in an apt corp not an apt, a coop is a state business corp like other corps that sell shares to the public that must comply with business corp rules, etc.

-- We may note a few policies or bldg rules at an interview but we don't explain all of them. There are too many, and applicants are nervous and won't remember much of what you say. You're lucky if current SHs know what they are or bother to ask if they don't.

-- We give an applicant our "Welcome" flyer as soon as he's told that he's approved. It has a short intro then bullet points with initial guidelines he needs to know: move-in rules, super/doorman's hours, phone numbers for the super, property mgr, etc.

-- An applicant must sign each page of our house rules in the sale package, but that doesn't have to be notarized. Notarization basicall confirms that the person signing is who he says he is. It doesn't confirm that he read and understands the house rules. Just signing is sufficient.

-- At an interview we ask an applicant if he has questions about the coop, bldg, staff, etc. Boards ask questions but they sometimes forget to ask applicants if they have any.

-- 10 years ago, we created a SH's manual containing all coop policies/procedures, a copy of the house rules, fees/fines, who's responsible for what, etc. and master copies of key forms such as applications for doing renovations, sublets, refinancing, etc. When a SH sells, he's has to give his manual to the buyer at closing or pay $100 for another copy. Buyers are advised to read and keep it handy. This is a lot easier than trying to explain all the rules at an interview. All SHs are told to refer to the manual or call the property mgr with any questions, before they start apt projects, etc. With a manual like this, SHs can't give excuses and say "I didn't know that" or "no one told me."

-- There are areas you can't touch upon, but many boards hesitate to ask much and tippy-toe through interviews. We're courteous of course but we ask an applicant why he wants a coop, why he wants to buy into ours, etc. There's nothing wrong with asking questions or posing a little challenge. We may ask, for ex, "What would you do if a neighbor..." Answers can tell you a lot about a person's character, level of maturity and sense of responsibility.

FYI: Per anti-discrimination laws, there are 14 "protected categories" in which law suits can be put forth if it can be proven that someone was rejected for a job, purchase or whatever on any of these grounds:
Age
Disability
Partnership status
Alien status
Gender (including gender identity)
Race
Children (or childless state)
Lawful occupation
Religion
Country of national origin
Marital status
Sexual orientation
Creed
Military status

Excellent ideas, BP! I'm going to share them with my board. Thanks.

Very impressive and very organized, BP! This sounds like a very well-run co-op.

Hi. It's actually possible to leave pseudonymous comments on the Blog. See instructions at the first comment at:

http://habitatmag.com/index.php/habitat/activities/habitat_blog/top_ten_list_pet_peeves

To JB - thanks for the plug and sorry for the lack of posts the past few days. I've been fighting a winter bug but feeling better now and just posted something new.

These are bonds and CDs. You don't expect to cash them in early anyway, and when they reach their due dates, you'll get the full amount. The value of the present yield is meaningless.

I applaud the board for letting share holders know, though I might have added the preceding point.

This segment of the investment is FNMA and FHLMC preferred preferred stock. There is no "maturity value". As far as I can tell these securities are virtually worthless or at the most nil in value.

Wow - a very expensive mistake but they had no choice but to be honest with the shareholders and I would give them credit for the honesty. They must now develop and implement a strategy for rebuilding their reserve funds. We have about $1.5M in our reserve account but have never invested in stocks of any kind. We do have GNMA bonds which are guaranteed, unlike their stock. The rest is all in T-Bills & Notes which are paying very little but the principal is guaranteed. The first item in any board's investment strategy must be to preserve principal - it's much more important in the long run than a potentially higher return.

You don't indicate the size of the co-op or the amount of reserve funds, both of which are relevant. The portion of total reserves which were moved into these securities is critical.

Does the statement "All of our reserve funds in our account are currently invested in fully insured CDs and US government guaranteed bonds" refer to when this announcement was made, or to the time immediately preceding the securities purchase?

If all or most of the co-op's reserves were moved from CDs & bonds into the securities described, then the decimation of reserve funds calls for a lot more than candor: these Board members should apologize to their neighbors & resign. While the law allows Boards to gamble with co-op funds, few shareholders would condone any investment philosophy or action which puts principal at risk.

This presumes that shareholders were not polled on investment strategies, & that these decisions were by Board members alone. If so, they've proven themselves unworthy to exercise their judgment in the common good.

[...and what is your interest, if this is "a co-op in the neighborhood?"]

I'm on the board of my own building and we never ever invest in stocks. A few of my friends are shareholders in the building that dissipated the reserve funds and asked my advice.

Then you know what to tell them: approach the Board members individually & discreetly, suggesting they step down, thereby avoiding the unwelcome fuss of a recall campaign. There's no forgiving an error this big, but avoid any discussion or threat of accountability; on this front, they'll fail [& only create a worse atmosphere than they already suffer].

We are in the process of doing a story on laddering investment, and would love to include this example as a cautionary tale (and also what boards should do). Can you contact me for further discussion?

This is a horrific story, and underscores the fact that Boards should stick with risk-free investments.

It's especially troubling that these investments were made in May and June of 2008. Fannie Mae had reported a loss of $2.2 billion for 1Q08, and the stink was already in the air:

Reuters, Tue May 6, 2008
Fitch Places Fannie Mae's Preferred Stock On Rating Watch Negative
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS200843+06-May-2008+BW20080506

What led this Board to invest in FNM preferred stock at such a time?

In general, it's a bad idea and a future problem waiting to happen, not to mention a possible conflict of interest if he/she cannot separate themselves properly. I can guarantee that almost no matter what they are charging, the long term it will cost you more if the person has no experience.

Notwithstanding my personal opinion, there are several factors to look at...

~Who will be responsible for banking and financial transactions?
~If it is the Manager, then you want some adequate fidelity bond insurance.
~Check with the D&O policy and ensure there are no exclusions for this.
~All billing and invoicing must be approved by the board treasurer in addition to the managing agent to create a system of balance.
~Are you going to purchase management/accounting software? Will you give all this to third party? Good software can be costly.
~A strong system of checks and balances must be in place.
~a small private building is not a coop or condo, the laws are different, how will he educate himself?
~Is the Board placing themselves in a vulnerable position? I believe so.. speak to your attorney about negligence and your fiduciary responsibility to do what is best for the shareholders...what is the reason for the change? To save money? cheaper is not better...

Unless you are a small building and will actually self manage and use this person as a liaison/manager it cannot work.

Food: when you fire anyone, even a superintendant, you have the benefit of removing him leaving the premises; what if you have to fire this manager?

There are many more, and I can probably write a small book about concerns and proper protocols, but just wanted to toss a few out there to you. Obviously, these are just my opinions, but having been in the business for 23 years I am confident in them. let us know what you decide to do and how you make out please.
Good Luck

~AR

Thank you AR, for your very wise words. They are very helpful, indeed. You always provide such reasonable advice. You are an asset to this blog, for sure.

I don't know if this candidate will be chosen yet by the Board, but there is a very strong chance since he is friends with 2 of the Board members. The reason the management company will be replaced is because most in the building believe they have done, at best, a negligent job and now the building's financial condition is in truly terrible condition.

Oh, how I rue the day that I bought into this condo building

Thank you for your kind words.

Many times i see boards who do not want to raise maintenance enough to cover the budget and later it falls on the managing agent who reccomended the increase in the first place.

I recently had a similar situation, but after fighting with the Board and putting the budget in writing and my recommendations, in addition to the possible consequences, the Board reluctantly agreed. That was last year.. this year they thanked me.

Perhaps it's time for you to run for the Board?